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Post by Clover on Dec 4, 2007 15:21:55 GMT -5
See, I always have a bit of fun with the Witnesses. I figure, it might be rewarding for them to walk around at the ass-crack of dawn, but I am a student, and I will undoubtedly have been up studying late into the night. As such, when I went to sleep at four and and am awakened to hear the GOOD NEWS at 7 am, I am hardly the most charitable person on the planet. My grandfather got around this. He didn't want to be rude and turn them away, and he definitely didn't want to encourage them, so when the Witnesses stopped by at seven in the morning one Sunday, he answered the door. Wearing only his fedora. They didn't come back for fifty years. No shit. That was one of the stories they told at his funeral--the man was buried in that hat. Its a family joke, now. And maaaan, I can't wait til the summertime to try it out.
Also, I am horribly cruel to telemarketers. I had one call once, asking for my mother. I answered, put on my best "This is Buisness" voice and explained that there had been a murder, and did they know the woman in question? And that they would have to come down to Toronto Central to answer a few questions, if they didn't mind. Another time, they called asking for my Step-dad's ex wife. I told them she'd died. I still don't regret that one.
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Post by bats on Dec 4, 2007 17:28:08 GMT -5
Ah, the old murder bit, that one's a classic.
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Post by limbowoman on Dec 5, 2007 0:41:52 GMT -5
They don't think that just being christian equals their religion...
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Post by Trey on Dec 5, 2007 6:31:23 GMT -5
I'm not talking about witnesses Limbo, never said I was.
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Post by alba on Dec 5, 2007 6:36:37 GMT -5
@ Clover: you actually stay up that late to STUDY? Maybe it's because I'm only in first year that I don't have that much work, but the latest I've stayed up to work is midnight (although I got up at seven that morning to finish my essay). I tend to get my work done during the day and then stay out far too late at night, so I'm still not very charitable in the morning.
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Post by Clover on Dec 5, 2007 7:09:53 GMT -5
Alba, I'm in first year. (Technically, second, but I switched my major so I'm starting afresh) My course load is split between Political Science, Anthropology and Pychology. My courses this term are: Advanced Calculus, Advanced Biology, Political Science, Physical Anthropology, and Behavioural Psychology. Next term I have: Advanced Calculus II, Political Science, Neuropsychology, Cultural Anthropology, Archeology, and Love in Western Religion (Religious Studies course).
It mondo-painful.
Also, I think its safe to say that, with all due respect, Christians in general seem to really like taking the mick out of each other. I mean, You have the Roman Catholics smacking down the Gnostics, then you have the RCs fighting with the Protestants and the Calvinists and the Lutherans and the Puritans, and THEN you get the Baptists, Anabaptists, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, GNOSTICS, Mormons, Lutherans, ect ect et al. I mean, it does on occasion make me wonder how one person could have caused that whole todoo. Is it heretical to wonder what Jesus (assuming he was a historical figure in the first place) would say? I mean, the schisms in Christianity/Catholicism are NUTS.
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Post by alba on Dec 5, 2007 9:06:00 GMT -5
wow, that's a pretty harsh courseload. I'm an English student, so I have English, Mediaeval History, and Latin this semester, and English, Scottish History, and Latin (which I might switch to calculus next semester if I can and feel like it) next semester. We only do three courses a semester in Britain, each worth twenty credits (generally) and, in arts, we have three lectures and one tutorial a week, although I know from friends doing maths and sciences that they have more lectures and practicals. I think we're supposed to do more work, but our grades this year don't count towards the degree, so we need to get 5/20 to progress to second year, and 11/20 next year to progress into Honours to do an M.A. (yes, when I graduate in four years I'll be getting an M.A., though I'll have to do another one to go on to do a PhD., and yes, our marking scheme is fucked unless you did IB). Seeing as on my last two essays I got 13 and 13.5, and wrote them both the day before/day of, I can't be arsed doing more work. I'll save that for third- and fourth-years when it counts.
And I agree with you about the Christianity thing. I'm a Christian myself, although I'm not entirely sure where I fall, because my parents were brought up in the Church of Scotland, and the Canadian 'version' of that is Presbyterian, but the First United Church actually has more beliefs and practices in common with the Church of Scotland so that's what we attend in Canada. There are certain beliefs in, for instance, the Roman Catholic Church with which I don't agree, but I still have some very close Catholic friends, and couldn't care less if they believe it. Personally, I think we should all unite, but that's never going to happen. And just so you know (I'm not trying to say this in a condescending manner at all, but an informative one) there is evidence that a man, Jesus of Nazareth, existed and was crucified by the Romans. That is historical fact, the rest is belief.
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Post by Trey on Dec 5, 2007 15:19:29 GMT -5
Yeah, there's a lot of different branches. XD
Also, I highly disagree that we should all unite. Everyone would have to waver some of their beliefs and the entire new religion of Christianity would be just that: a new religion. It wouldn't be what I believe in at all, and I really doubt anyone would give way some of their beliefs so that it could happen.
But yeah, Catholicism is kind of ridiculous... no offense?
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Post by AndrogynousMelon on Dec 5, 2007 20:58:36 GMT -5
I think organized religion in general is kind of retarded. I have (recently) switched from agnostic to "I believe in some kind of God but maybe Jesus wasn't the son of some Higher Power". Funny thing? It was Catholicism itself that made me lose belief in God in the first place. But all organized religions have the same basic things: a higher power you rejoin with when you die IF you follow/meet certain criteria. Vastly over simplified, but there it is. They also have the same (basic basic basic) rules. They just take them to varying extremes. Honestly, I don't think it matters what you believe in or even if you believe. It's what you do and who you are that matters in whatever afterlife we hit. And I utterly loath anybody who tries to convert me, and then gives me the "Ahh you have it ALL figured out don't you" eye-roll when I tell them I'm happy in my own beliefs. Which has been my entire experience with witnesses or any other walky converter types. Any laughter I've heard is because I am so very mislead or something. That just rubs me the wrong fucking way lemme tell ya.
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Post by Clover on Dec 5, 2007 21:25:39 GMT -5
alba: Oh, I fully will admit the evidence supports the historical presence of a man named Jesus of Nazareth being tried and crucified. What I don't believe in is that said man was actually the son of any higher power. I think its possible to be a great human being, and a great humanist, and not be Divine. If anything, I think I'd have more respect for his message if he WAS just Joseph Average, since it means he was a good, kind and caring man. My main problem with a lot of organized religion is that it seems to really enjoy harping on two things I am: a woman, and gay. And before I sound like a feminazi, its true. Obviously, there are sects, such as the United Church, that are cool with just about everything, and the more liberal areas of the religious spectrum are also pretty nifty--but then you get religions like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and heaven forbid, Southern Baptists--and that's where everything just crashes and burns. My distaste for organized religion started when I was thirteen. I'd just come out to all my friends (to a rousing chorus of, "well, duh".), and someone came up to me and decided to tell me that I was going to Hell because being gay was a sin. They wern't too impressed when I started quoting back Scripture, specifically passes in Leviticus where it says that you can't be gay. Levitical lay also states you can't eat shellfish and dairy on the same place (shrimp fettucine, guys, is totally heretical), you can't wear clothing of mixed fibres (which now a days means walk around naked), and that if your husband dies, you are now his brother's property. You also can't wear red. But they were adamant that, despite everything, being gay was the worst thing possible. And that's when I distanced myself from organized religion, because if a religion is so set on one thing to the exclusion of all others, then I really didn't want to be there. I'm now more spiritual then religious. The most 'religious' belief I have is reincarnation, because it makes more sense, to my mind, then most of the alternatives. And yeah.. no offence, but I have a vague sense of distaste when it comes to the preachy sorts. It might be a Canadian thing, but we're a little bit more restrained then the Americans I've seen; really much more of a live-and-let-live attitude to a lot of things. So it comes as a shock to have someone come up and try to convince you of the validity of THEIR beliefs, without considering the fact that its quite likely that you have your own for a reason. I've only been the victim of an attempted-conversion twice in nine years in Canada (not counting the Witnesses), and both times, they both had such an air of smug superiority that I just wanted to shake them. If anyone asks, though, I'm rockin the Pastafarianism.
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Post by Trey on Dec 5, 2007 21:45:51 GMT -5
Melon, see, I don't think you have to meet any criteria except that you're a good person and believe in God.
Also, Clover.. I'm pretty sure you're going to Hell because being gay is a sin >=o
Now then, Let us talk more about Him, seeing as it is The Holiday.
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Post by AndrogynousMelon on Dec 5, 2007 21:59:01 GMT -5
Oh man, that kinda gets at me. The Christmas season. There are....a couple other holidays in this season if I recall. I don't know very much about them. But I know they're there. And while it's the Christmas season to me- I am not gonna try and force somebody to call it that. All this crap over Christmas trees not being called Christmas trees and it being refered to as the HOLIDAY season in a country that has WAY TOO MANY RELIGIONS for us to fairly refer to it as the Christmas season anyway is just...just...so retarded. I never had a problem with it being called the Holiday season instead. Even when I EXCEPTIONALLY Christian. And I was, at one point. Sort of fanatical in fact. And it still didn't bother me. Then again, I'm also annoyed by the whiney athiests who don't want to hear me discuss Christmas being religious. Or get uppity about a creche being put up in front of a court house, or in an airport.
Why can't people just let people celebrate or believe as they want? Really where does that idea get so complicated?
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Post by Clover on Dec 5, 2007 21:59:45 GMT -5
See, thats the thing, though, Trey: we're going to disagree on that. Being gay is, according to Leviticus, no more a sin then going to a nice Italian restaurant and eating a seafood fettucine alfredo. That's a mixing of dairy and shellfish, and technically, sinful. As is eating pork. As is wearing clothing with mixed fibres. So unless you've been wearing linen all your life, or pure cotton, you've been sinning since the second you were wrapped in a semi-wool blanket post-birth.
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is more about rape and a lack of hospitality then it is about sodomy. And anyways, I'm sorry, but if you look into the Old Testament, and even the New Testament, there are a lot of things in there that I cannot, in good conscience, condone. To use Soddom and Gomorrah as an example, when the villagers come up to Lot and say, "Bring out these men, so we may know them", Lot says, "No, I will not show you these men--but here, have my virgin daughters instead." Basically, he's saying, "Rather then bugger these strangers, here, take my young, virgin daughters. Feel free to gang rape them." I cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, see that as a good thing. And yet, that is what the Bible tells us to do.
Also, Trey, I'd like to point something out. Here's a bit of a fallacy in your statements: "If you are a good person, and believe in God, you will go to Heaven. But if you are gay, you are committing a sin, and thus are going to Hell." So, even if I was a good person my entire life, gave to charity and helped out at a soup kitchen, clothed the homeless and did, actually, attend Church every now and again.. .even if I did all that and happened to be gay--which wasn't, for me, any semblance of a choice... then I would go to Hell?
I'd like that explained to me, actually.
ETA: Also, I'm all for religious iconography being shown in public. I just think that if you're going to show ONE, you should show them all. Have a Nativity Scene, and a little further down, have a couple of Menorah. Further down, a couple of "Happy Eid" posters. Have a Happy Solstice picture, too. Thats what they do in the Public Schools here--- we have 'Festive Celebrations' around Christmas, and we'll sing Christmas Carols, Kwanzaa songs, Jewish Songs, PAGAN songs. And then round the entire evening off with the Halleluiah Chorus from Handel's Messiah. I think that its only in the states that you guys get so twisted about it.
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Post by AndrogynousMelon on Dec 5, 2007 22:07:26 GMT -5
There is one person responsible for me rethinking my stance on God, and that is a bisexual preacher I met. He studied religion and we had a great long wonderful discussion on how he justifies (yes justifies) being attracted to men while being a man of God. He said basically the same thing Clover did, that it was the sheer and horrible lack of hospitality and not homosexuality that got Soddom and Gomorrah burned. Back then hospitality was a big deal. God sent the angels to sit outside the gates and they waited there a full day and no one came to them and offered them shelter. In fact when Lot approached them, he said "It is so not safe for y'all to be sitting out here." And yes there a bunch of other totally ridiculous things in Leviticus. You can use the Scripture to justify whatever you like, honestly. You also need to remember that what is written there is written for that time period, and a lot of it is just for sensible health reasons as opposed to moral.
Also man held the pen. I don't care how divinely inspired that book is; men are by nature corrupt and terrible. And bigoted.
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Post by Aindel on Dec 5, 2007 22:25:07 GMT -5
Really, everything is based upon interpretation. I mean, you can't dispute a basic, narrative sentence like "Jesus rode into the city on a mule." Firstly, who the hell is going to dispute that? Secondly, who cares? Any law-based sentences, however, are completely open to interpretation, and can be twisted any number of ways in order to suit the needs of the reader. Organized religion is dumb.
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